Fernando’s Real Talk podcast with 3T on “Leaving Neverland”

Finding out about “Leaving Neverland”

Fernando: Yeah my name is Fernando, this is an exclusive interview, Real Talk. We’re gonna have a real conversation with 3T. Guys, how are you doing?


TJ: We’re doing well, Fernando. How are you?


Fernando: Yeah, it’s been a crazy couple of weeks. This whole documentary has everybody just going up and down and Michael Jackson fans being angry. People that know Michael Jackson fans are like “Oh I told you so”. The only thing that I wish the documentary had was the other side of the story, the Jackson side of the story ‘cause I believe a good documentary should tell both sides of the story so the reason why I decided to call you guys, I want you guys to tell your side of the story and just take us into the whole element. Like when you guys heard about the documentary what was the first thing you guys thought?


Taj: Well for me when I first heard it, this is Taj speaking, basically we heard, we found out just like everyone else found out. No heads up, no nothing just literally social media and news, press, press release basically that this documentary came out. At that point they didn’t say who it was, who were the two men that were accusing my uncle. They just be, it was like a mystery but we already kind of knew at that point who it was because they had been trying to sue the Estate for the last four years. So we had a very good idea and then finally it was confirmed to us. I think it was just really a shady thing to do in terms of not even including not only our family but including anyone that really knew Michael to be encountered to this. I think they weren’t interested in the truth. They were interested in their own propaganda and they had a message to send and anyone that could, not only defend my Uncle but could poke so many holes into their story, they were kept out of it.


TJ: I personally don’t even like calling it a “documentary”. To me it’s a film, it’s more closer to a movie because it’s literally a script of four hours of emotionally manipulating. They use sound, they use angles, they use lighting. They did everything they could to paint my Uncle into something he’s not. And like Taj mentioned there’s really no fact, there’s no evidence and they didn’t give anyone an opportunity to rebut it, to counter all the claims. I just thought it was very emotionally manipulating and it played on people’s feelings and it rode the Me Too movement and I think that’s why if you saw it and you feel a different way about my Uncle I truly feel that [inaudible]. And one more thing I’d like to say is that it’s like being in the courtroom and just hearing the prosecution case for four hours and then having to leave. Of course you’re going to be sticking one way. You’ve never heard the defense say anything and that’s why I don’t have much respect for the director Dan Reed and the whole production, if there’s any more people involved, because they didn’t care about the truth. They just did this to profit on it, they know my Uncle is the biggest name in the world, at least top five, and they knew it would be sellable around the world and they’re making money. It’s a shame that our world has gotten to that but it’s very upsetting for us as a family ‘cause we have to deal with it and we know the real Michael. My brothers and I say this all the time, it was him who saved our lives and inspired us. When we see images rearranged for four hours to destroy him, it hurts.


Uncle Michael

Fernando: Tell us little bit about a side of Michael that people don’t know because people know you guys as a family but tell us a little about how Michael saved you guys and was there for you guys when you needed him the most.


TJ: Well I think it’s out there, I just think people, the media doesn’t want to report what kind of Michael. I mean our Uncle was the, Michael Jackson was in the Guinness Book of World Records for donating and giving money to people. Hundreds of millions of dollars and that’s another thing because he gave to everyone: women, men, boys, girls, handicapped, sick, animals but the media has changed the narrative through this film of saying, acting like he only gave to “boys”. And the media, and the film kind of changed the perspective of my Uncle “shaping them” when in reality these guys and their families were [inaudible] and shaping my Uncle. So then you flip the script and without encounter it’s believable.




Back to your question though Fernando, our Uncle was the greatest. He was the biggest popstar in the world. In ’94 our mother was murdered by someone who’s still in jail and that wanted, needed money for business deals. My mom wouldn’t do it and because he wanted her to ask my Uncle Michael, my mom wouldn’t do it so the guy murdered our mother and when our Uncle heard about the fact that our mother was no longer with us, he flew in town and pretty much regrabbed us under his wings and reinspired us to be the men we are now. So we owe a lot to our Uncle and this isn’t just about trying to protect a family member. This guy, Michael Jackson, was the greatest human, the most generous person and to see what they’ve tried to do to him is very disappointing.




Michael Jackson: kindhearted and genuine

Fernando: One of the things that I heard a lot of people talk about when they see the “documentary”, they say like the way how he always was hanging with children and that they would have sleep overs, that hat was one of the things that they found questionable. And now these guys [inaudible] the story and they tell their side of the story, there are a lot of people that believe “Ok, it’s kind of crazy or strange for a man, of I think he was 33 at that time, to have sleep overs”. How do you tell that side of the story? How would you explain that to the people?


TJ: Taj, you want to take this or you want me to?


Taj: No I mean for me we were part of some of those slumber parties things. People always equate anything with a sleep over/slumber party because we’re adults and I think the world is different now. The world thinks very negative and they think very sinister and they think “Oh it must have been creepy, it must have been this, it must have been that” because I feel we’re kind of a projection on our own self. We feel like “well that’s how we look at it so that’s must be what is was” but my Uncle didn’t grow up that way. My Uncle didn’t grow up thinking

in those terms, my Uncle was working professionally since he the age of eight and he didn’t have the childhood that normal people would have. From birthday parties to things like that and I think that people don’t really understand that. But when you look at his close friends beside us the family, the Elizabeth Taylors, the Diana Rosses, that really got to know, even the Lisa Marie Presley’s that really got to know him, her being married to him, they’ve all defended him and they’ve all said about his heart and about him being genuine. He was just a kid, he was very kid like. Not many 33 year olds have water balloon fights either and play hide and go seek. He did. He did that constantly and the thing is, is that it’s ok if you do it when there are sick children and stuff like that at Neverland. It’s like they’ve made it sinister and they’ve made Neverland into a sinister place where thousands of people have been there and love it and still defended it till this day because it was never sinister. They made it sinister.           


TJ: And there’s a couple of things I want to add. You may think as a “bedroom” like the room you may sleep in or the room I may sleep in. My Uncle’s room was bigger than most people’s homes to be honest. It was huge.


Taj: I think it was like 3000 square feet.


Taryll: Yeah there were a couple of rooms in there with a couple of beds.




TJ: So it was a mini house so when people say “he’s sharing his bedroom” it sounds very sinister but really they we’re sleeping in his [inaudible] and another thing I wanted to say: they presented in that “documentary”, in that movie that it was like “all the time”, that my Uncle “always had kids in his room”. That’s not the case and if you we’re around my Uncle as a kid there’s no other place you wanted to be. You wanted to spend as much time as you could because he was so happy and so fun and [Taj: Adults too.] adults too. You just wanted to be with him. I think what irritates me the most about that movie is how they spun it on him and my Uncle opened up his home to thousands of kids every year, handicapped to the ones that are ill to all kids [Taj: the underprivileged] to try to make they’re world a better place, trying to bring a smile and this movie didn’t show any of that because it didn’t fit their narrative and I think that’s wrong and it’s very unethical for them to do that.


Taj: And I can tell you as well. Child abuse is a sickness. You’re not selective when you’re a child abuser. My Uncle has been around thousands and thousands of kids and that’s the thing they want you to [inaudible] believe that he just selected, it’s almost like Halley’s Comet “he decided every once in a while to molest”. That’s not how it works. It’s a disease. It’s something that if you’re presented with an opportunity you can’t help it, it’s almost like an alcoholic or someone that is ill in that way. If you’re presented with the opportunity, you take it and that’s what bothers me about this, is that we’re supposed to believe, and they want you to believe, that he decided to turn it off and on like a faucet and that’s not how it works.


Survivors of child abuse

Fernando: Yeah because Taj you also said in one of the interviews you also were a survivor, you were molested as a child. How do you feel when you look at these stories told in this “movie-documentary”. How do you feel being a true victim looking at it. Is it extra hard to look at a movie depicted this way?


Taj: Yeah, I’ll tell you why Fernando. First of all, my Uncle on my mom’s side of the family, the minute he had an opportunity he molested me and the minute I had slept over my cousin’s house he molested us. Taryll, you’ve came out before so I’m not outing you. Yeah it was me and Taryll, so it’s not only me. That’s what I’m saying but not only that, when you are molested I don’t care who you are if you’re the parent of someone that is being molested you won’t have good feelings for that person and that’s what bothers me about this “documentary” too for 45 minutes they’re talking about their good memories of Michael Jackson. [TJ: Uhuh.] If that was my kid I would not have any good memory. I would be like “this guys is a monster and he’s always been a monster” [Taryll: There would be a lot of anger.] but they’re over there smiling, reminiscing. That’s not how you do that when you’ve been a victim. I don’t care who you are. A lot of people that have been abused, that are supporting my Uncle say that’s one of the things that doesn’t pass the smell test. You want nothing to do with them or you have anger. [TJ: And in addition, you don’t keep stuff that they supposedly…] Yeah you don’t keep keepsakes like “Happy Birthday messages” and all that stuff, that’s ridiculous. I know it’s hard because I call this film very like it’s propaganda because it’s four hours of… You’re in a room for four hours… I recently had a baby and we were debating whether to have vaccines or not so I watched a movie called “Vaxxed”. By the end of that I was like: “No way that any vaccines is touching my baby.” But then I did some research and then it’s like you have to do research. You can’t just take something for what it is and that’s the problem with this “documentary”, there’s no… he [Dan Reed] has even admitted in interviews, he didn’t want a conflicting side.




Jordan Chandler and “hush money”

Fernando: And the whole story that goes through the movie is the fact that every time they go back to the story Jordan Chandler where Michael settled for 23 million whatever like that large amount. That thing is what has a lot of people think: “Oh it was “hush money””. How do you guys feel about that, when people bring that up?


TJ: I don’t like that. I don’t agree with that argument at all because as a parent if someone did that to my child no money would be enough. I’d want that person locked in jail or I would kill him myself. Period.


Taj: Well, I’ll go even further TJ because I kind of know the legalities of everything. First of all, in the media it started at 15 million. Now it’s at 20 million, now it’s at 23. So they just keep upping the price and if you look further back it was 15 and then 20 and then 23. So they keep raising it but not only that my Uncle, it was a civil case that he settled that basically never prevented Jordy Chandler from testifying in the criminal case so words like “hush money” means that people can’t talk. He [Michael Jackson] was just trying to get rid of it because he was on tour, he was making a lot of money on tour [TJ: Hundreds of millions of dollars.] and everyone was telling him to settle because he is a “cash cow”. They don’t want people to go out of work, they’re like “you can’t stop this tour to go into court”. So here’s the thing and this is the biggest point of it all, nothing prevented Jordy or his parents or any of his relatives in testifying in a criminal case. He could’ve testified in 1994, he could’ve testified in 2005. So the word “hush money” is a lie and this is fact. This is not us saying this. If people actually do their research… If you’re guilty the first you want to do is shut them up. This didn’t prevent them from saying anything. They could’ve still went to court and they did not because they wanted money only.

Another thing Fernando, which is the biggest thing of it all, you being a fan and you probably remember this, when the police made him to take pictures of his genitalia. There’s been a lot of lies about that but the truth is, and you can look this up as well, the truth is that they didn’t match. The kid’s description, Jordy Chandler’s description did not match my Uncle’s genitalia. My Uncle was uncircumcised and Jordy said that he was circumcised. That’s a big mistake. That mistake’s so big that the civil case didn’t even want to include that evidence. [TJ:  The criminal case.] Well, the criminal case, they didn’t have any evidence so after four months they dropped it because they had no evidence to go off. Trust me, if that matched he would’ve been in jail because they don’t mess around, they’ve all wanted him. So that’s what I’m saying is that what they don’t tell you about 1993 was that it never stopped Jordy from testifying and that the description never matched and that’s a huge thing because at that age you know the difference between a circumcised penis and an uncircumcised penis.




Michael Jackson: Child at heart

Fernando: Wasn’t there a time where all these things were happening and the media was always linking him to children. Was there a point where the family warned Michael and maybe said: “Yo, Michael, maybe you should just stay away from these kids because people are trying to take advantage.” Did you ever talk to him about it or was there ever a conversation about “Hey this thing, your genuine love for children or you having sleep overs, people have strange ideas”. Was this ever part of the conversation?


Taj: I think it’s hard because I think as society we dictate what’s strange and what’s weird. And when you know someone’s heart and their purity it doesn’t even phase you in that way. Honestly, us coming from the outside of it we hear things from people and all that stuff so we realized it but when you’re inside you don’t realize it because you’re not thinking you’re doing anything wrong because you’re not doing anything wrong. You’re looking at it as kids were his inspiration and a reason for his music and stuff like that so he’s not looking at it as “I’m doing something evil”. He’s doing it as… “these kids inspire me” and we all need to be more kid-like. Kids don’t know about racism, parents teach them racism. Kids don’t know about money, they don’t know about money, parents teach them about money. Kids aren’t like, that’s the thing with kids. Kids don’t want anything from you but companionship and friendship. It’s adults that start looking at you as a paycheck. [Taryll: And they’re the ones that have different agenda’s.] And they’re the ones that have different agenda’s. And it’s a common thing in this whole thing. And it’s hard to tell someone “Hey be careful with this” or “You know how this looks” when in reality. I’m someone that wants to be more child-like, I still play hide and go seek with my cousins and all of that stuff and tag and everything like that because I’m a child at heart from looking at how he was. And I think there’s nothing wrong with being like that. I think this world is very, very much all about themselves and not as giving as a child would’ve been.




The Jackson family

Fernando: Seen the fact how, ‘cause I believe this “documentary-movie” has been sold to 130 countries worldwide so they get a lot of money. But how did this “documentary-movie” affect the Jackson family because once again, ten years later, after your Uncle died, another story again and like a whole bunch of radio stations saying “we’re not going to play this and do this” like tarnishing the name, tarnishing the legacy. How do you as family respond to that, I mean how does this affect the family? In what way. Could you explain how that came about?


Taryll: I think it’s very unfair. I get annoyed, I get very angry because they’re taking lies. They’re taking negativity and they’re running with it. A lot of the media. Like we all said: they’re not checking facts because if they did they would see the truth. It’s painful because, this affects, we’re a family first so this affects his children, this affects his mother and his brothers and sisters and all of us as well. My children, I got kids that go to school and it affects me. It affects everybody and the annoying part about it is that it’s all lies. You know they’re lies and there’s facts and there’s truth out there but they don’t want to spread the truth just as much as they’re spreading the lies. They cover the truth. They almost want to hide the truth because it’s not about the truth. It’s about lies and destroying his legacy to me and I think that’s completely wrong. So yes the truth, I believe, I strongly believe that the truth will come out but I don’t think it will get the headlines that the negativity gets. And it bothers me because now, you see things like Michael and you see statues that were earned you know my Uncle would put so much time in giving and they gave him the statues and they gave him all these awards and now people are starting to pull them back and I think that’s completely wrong on lies. That’s the part that really bothers me, when they’re pulling the episodes of The Simpsons, when they’re removing the statues that were placed outside of a football club. Those things really upset me and bother me because I know, and my brothers know as well, how hard our Uncle worked and how dedicated he was to all of this and the reality is he gave so much to the world and yet this is what he’s receiving. That’s what bothers me.


Taj: Yeah I think also what is very frustrating is the fact that, my Uncle was never convicted of anything. He actually went through a trial and was proven innocent. We’re living in a day and age where you can convict someone afterwards off of no evidence. Where a FBI ten-year investigation from the FBI, which found nothing, doesn’t mean anything to people anymore. That’s what bothers me more than anything that people are defying facts, they’re actually ignoring everything in terms of everything that proves my Uncle is innocent and has always been innocent. People don’t even want to hear and that’s the scariest thing. So now were in a dangerous territory where speaking convicts people for just testimony of other people and my Uncle is not here to defend himself. There is no law anywhere where viable and slander we can sue Robson and Safechuck because the dead can’t be slandered and it’s frustrating. So we just have to sit here and listen to them lie and listen to them tell untruth and we can’t do anything about it.


TJ: And for those who’ve watched it and feel that they’re credible, please take a half hour and look into these guys. Do your research, do your research. Don’t just follow what you’re seeing. You owe that, you did four hours on their side, do 30 minutes on.. go to “Neverland Facts” [Twitter] or go to “MJ Factuals” [Twitter]. Taj: Or “MJ Innocent” [Twitter].


Staging “Leaving Neverland”

Fernando: Let’s analyze the “docu-film” and could you guys tell us about which parts are inconsistent and don’t add up so people can hear like “Ok, I gotta look for this part. This is the part where this is this, where Wade is saying this…”


TJ: Honestly Fernando, the vast majority. [Taj: And it’s all lie.] Everything. They’ve staged all of that stuff. Every voicemail, every letter, everything my Uncle gave them. There’s nothing incriminating in what they have. Nothing.


Taj: For all of that they say, they have no one shred of evidence that my Uncle did anything to them.


TJ: And here’s the thing, because they show you letters or faxes from my Uncle that are very innocent and inspiring that we’ve all gotten and many, many people have gotten because they show you that, you automatically as a viewer think they’re credible. So when they show you a box with the ring, that who knows if my Uncle really gave that to him, it could be from his late father which is bringing emotions. We don’t know and that’s the whole problem, my Uncle is not here to defend himself. My Uncle probably has [inaudible] and begging and phone records of them calling him over and over but we can’t prove that, we can’t show it cause he’s not here. So it’s very, it’s very… It’s tough because we’ve spent thousands of hours with our Uncle Michael, thousands of hours and that “monster” they created in that movie is nothing. It’s the exact opposite. Taj: Exact opposite.




Wade Robson’s discrepancies: Julien’s Auctions & 2005 dinner after testimony

Taj: I could tell you a couple of things real quick Fernando, because I know that’s what you’d want to hear. There’s a scene at the very end and I… here’s the funny thing, they cut out a lot of stuff. As they got caught they cut out of a lot of stuff in the European version ‘cause the HBO version is longer than the European version but they cut out everything that they got caught from so far but it’s still there in the HBO version and fans are still uploading the original video. There’s a scene at the end where Wade is burning Michael memorabilia and stuff in a fire and what we found out from Julien’s Auctions is that they sold the original a long time ago. So what Wade is basically burning is a fake one pretending that it’s a real one and even says it’s a real one. He even says it’s the real one. These people are lying for things stupid like that in terms of “dramatic effect”. Thank God Julien’s Auctions called them out on it because in 2011 he [Wade Robson] had to sell all of his Michael memorabilia for money. Why I’m saying that is because there’s a scene in “Leaving Neverland”, and as I said it might not be in the Holland version because I called them out on it on Twitter, and then “miraculously” it wasn’t in the UK version.

There’s a scene that I was basically there and that was in the 2005 trial time period where the Robson family said that they basically went to Neverland and that Wade saw Paris interacting with my Uncle, this was at a dinner, and Wade saw Paris interacting with my Uncle, my Uncle was “out of it” and Paris was tugging at him and my Uncle wasn’t responding and Wade said “That’s when I knew I had to save him” and then Wade’s wife Amanda says “Wade had to go testify the next day”. Why I’m saying that is because, I don’t even know if it’s in your version but it’s online, you need to look it up because this is the stuff they’re hiding from you in the HBO version that they’re getting caught in lies. Anyway, that dinner happened after the testimony, not before the testimony and why it’s important is because they have a whole family saying that this happened before ‘cause this was “the motivation” of why Wade lied on the stand cause he wanted to “save his friend” and he couldn’t bare his kids having they’re dad go to jail. So if they’re lying about something as stupid as that, trust me they’re lying about a lot of other things. That’s something that I was there physically for to witness and that’s why I can call them out on that thing particularly. That I can tell you a lot of other people have been calling them out on other things.


TJ: And on top of that Taj, he didn’t, he apparently didn’t realize this was happening to him till 2012. So, what do you have to “protect” someone from in 2005 if you don’t realize it happened?


Wade Robson: Suing the Estate, rejection by Cirque du Soleil and “secret book”

Taj: Well, not only that. It’s very interesting cause the statutes of limitation for perjury, he filed his claim right after that. So basically, he did that so he couldn’t get in trouble by his claim basically. So everything adds up: the Cirque du Soleil job that he did not get. He was praising Michael Jackson, Wade Robson was praising Michael Jackson, doing tributes, went to his memorial, did the MTV VMA’s right behind Janet, on screen they were performing. He did all of this talking how amazing Michael was. He thought he was going to get the MJ Cirque du Soleil job in Vegas and once he did not get that job all of a sudden he started writing a secret book about his “sexual abuse”. That’s the timeline and fans, not only fans, the public need to know this. He started writing a secret book about Michael Jackson “abusing him”. No publisher picked it up and that’s when he all of a sudden went and sued The Estate for “loss”, for hundreds of millions of dollars.


Fernando: And the book never came out. How did you guys hear about the book?


Taj: No and you know what? I bet he’s revising it now because people fell for it, people fell for his act. And in the book, during the deposition of that when he sued the Estate, The Estate found a written letter, one of them said “my sexual abuse and its affect will make me relatable/relevant”. That’s his words. What kind of sexual abuse makes you “relevant”? That’s not the word you use when you’re sexually abused. You don’t want to be relevant. “Relatable” yes but “relevant”? That shows what kind of mindset he is. He’s all about fame, he’s all about wanting to be important and the people need to see that and see through him and I kind of want people to actually wait a week and watch it again with the knowledge that you have. Do your research and then watch it again and watch it through a different lens and I guarantee you, you will see everything that we’re talking about.


Relationship Wade Robson & Brandi Jackson

Fernando: Because when we look at Wade Robson. He knew Michael at a very young age but you guys also saw Wade as a youngster. Could you tell us more about the person he is because now we have… What was he like because he also dated a niece of yours. What kind of guy was he?


Taj: Here’s the thing when you said the “documentary” is one sided and not fair. Here’s the biggest thing of it all, they managed to basically cut out an eight-year relationship that Wade had with my cousin Brandi. That’s nowhere in the “documentary” and in any kind of storyline but my cousin Brandi dated Wade throughout his whole teenage years and I think that’s super important because this whole thing about “Michael grooming him”, “Michael not wanting him to like women” and all that stuff it’s all such a BS. My Uncle set up Brandi and Wade to be together. That’s the thing that the media is still hiding. Brandi has had interviews cancelled that she was supposed to be on major networks for interview. They cancelled her interviews. So there’s a lot of people working behind the scenes for people to kind of “mute” us and our word. Brandi knows Wade, she dated him. When you date someone during the teenage years and you date someone for eight years, you know them backwards and forwards and you know their family. So Brandi is a big threat to the whole narrative. Not only that, she saw through Wade a long time ago. Way before that so I think that’s the thing they’re not telling you about. They’re not being honest with you. They’re not telling you that. If they would’ve thrown in that Wade was dating Michael Jackson’s niece for eight years they would’ve thrown everything out of the equation. “You’re saying you’re sexually abused by Michael Jackson but you’re dating his niece?” “And he set you up?” It’s not logical. That’s the whole point, it’s not logical. And the same thing, Brandi, think back to your teenage years everyone, when you’re a teenager, it’s like your best friends when you’re dating someone, you’re best friends. So don’t tell me that he hid this from his mom, his best friends, his girlfriend and everyone like that. No he did not “hide” it. It’s because it never happened.


Fernando: It’s amazing how many missing links there are in the “documentary”.


Taj: They had four hours, they couldn’t spend ten minutes talking about Brandi?




Edited birthday messages

TJ: And when they’re showing videos of my Uncle giving birthday messages to Wade. All that is edited. It’s all edited because there’s another message that’s edited. They’ve edited everything to make it seen as sinister and negative towards my Uncle as possible.


Taj: There a message to Jimmy [James Safechuck]. He [Michael Jackson] tells him to spend time with his mom and dad but they edit that out because they don’t want you to hear that part. That’s the part that you’re not supposed to hear. So this is very manipulative and all this is online. That’s why we tell people, go online because it is going to take some legwork but if you are someone that wants the truth of you’re a fan that’s on the fence that’s like “Man, I saw something and it has really messed me up”. Well, you know do that ten-minute research and I guarantee that ten to twenty minutes research you’ll feel a lot better. You’ll at least go: “You know what this is not adding up like it’s supposed to add up and let me do some more research”. And then you’ll go down a rabbit hole but then you’ll come out going: “Ok, I was lied to”.



Fernando: Because a lot of fans on my radio show. I asked people: “Did you watch it?” and a lot of people said: “No, we’re not watching it ‘cause we know it’s a bunch of lies” so there were a lot of listeners on the radio said “No I’m not watching it cause I know it’s a bunch of lies” and on the other hand there were a few, not much, people that said: “Yeah I saw it and I believe it” and then I asked the question: “Ok but did you believe it before the documentary?” Most of the people said: “Yeah it has to be true, why would people lie?” They say “Why would someone lie?” So a lot of people think that you cannot make jokes, I mean like tell lies…”


TJ: Fernando, I’ll tell you this. I’m still guardian for Michael’s youngest child. He’s seventeen. Do you know how often we are having to do something in court to dispel people who claim to be his mother? All the time. People are constantly suing and constantly trying to get at money. It’s money. [Taj: It’s hundreds of millions of dollars in this case.] It’s tiring and it’s all about money. Every one of them. Those two guys, who’ve been childhood performers, performers since they were children. They want money, the director wants money, it’s all money at my Uncle’s, my innocent Uncle, at his expense and it’s wrong.


Live versus recorded interviews

Taj: I ask people also to look at their live interviews. Not Oprah’s cause Oprah coached them through the whole thing. [TJ: Hers isn’t even live, Taj.] Yeah, you’re right. Watch their live interviews when it was live. They fall apart because they don’t even know their own story. They’ve told so many different stories that they contradict their own selves. That’s the thing. The fans found that out. Jimmy contradicted himself on Oprah’s special. They also tried to implement that other people around were enablers. They said that in the Oprah thing but it got cut out for the live broadcast, a journalist reported it. But they know that because if you implement someone they can sue. So by them saying that there were other people that had to have known, those people could sue them now. That’s why it was wisely cut out of that broadcast because people would’ve sued them because they do have rights. They’ve had some help in that case. That’s the thing, my Uncle was the most famous person in the world. That’s the thing, many people were around him and for this to have happened, everyone would have to be in on it.


Oprah Winfrey

Fernando: How did you guys feel when Oprah decided to do this special cause I remember growing up, watching an amazing interview of Oprah Winfrey with your Uncle. And all of a sudden I heard, I read about her doing this interview with Wade and James. I was like “Ok how would the Jackson family feel about this?” thinking that Oprah used to be a good friend of Michael’s or an advocate for Michael back in the days. How did that feel for you guys when she decided to this interview with these two guys?


Taj: I could tell you right now, this is Taj speaking so I don’t get my brothers in trouble, I feel like Oprah was always jealous of my Uncle. In 2005 when he was trialed [inaudible]. When the jury was selected she did an episode on her show about sexual abuse to paint that jury poll. That’s what I really honestly believe. I think she’s always, she used him to get the ratings that she got and then from then on she wanted to be top dog and I truly believe that because I don’t believe that on your birthday, when she saw this on her birthday on a yacht, this is the material that he would want to watch. She watched this because she wanted him to be guilty and she made sure she co-signed it and made sure all her friends co-signed it as well. My Uncle didn’t have a fair shot when this came out, he really didn’t and that’s why a lot of the black community in America is angry at Oprah ‘cause they know what she did and they know this is a lie and they know that she backstabbed everyone. It’s starting to come out though, it’s starting to come out. A lot of black celebrities are starting to be very angry about this because she could’ve easily said “You know what I don’t know anything about this, I don’t know enough” but she literally took it on and gave them a platform and gave them a special. A special.


James Safechuck: Contradicting storylines

TJ: And it was on that special, I believe, where Safechuck says he realized that it was happening to him when he saw and heard about Wade. [Taj: Yep.] And if that’s the case, if Safechuck is learning about my Uncle or “remembering” my Uncle abusing him from Wade in 2012, whenever it is, after my Uncle had passed, then why is his mom dancing around in the movie on the day he died that “he can’t abuse any more kids”? How did she know if he doesn’t even know? Those are the kind of lies that just are constant throughout the movie.


Taj: But there’s another version where he says that he discovered it through a therapist. So this is my problem, there’s so many different versions. So which version are we supposed to fight here? They can’t keep their own stories straight so that’s the problem we have and the media is not even holding them accountable. They’re giving them a free pass.




Me Too movement, Oprah Winfrey and Aaron Carter

Fernando: It’s crazy and the thing what I think. Taj, I’ve checked all your interviews and mad respect how you did all these conversation interviews. I must command you on that because you were going back and forth. I was checking everything but the thing that struck me, I’ve seen more interviews in Europe than in The States from the Jacksons. The only thing I saw of you was on a The Breakfast Club, there was a phoner but besides that I haven’t seen much footage or coverage on this subject from the Jackson family Estate. Why was that? What’s up with that?


Taj: Because of the Me Too movement and Oprah co-signing it. No one wants to go against Oprah and no one wants to go against the Me Too-movement. I think that’s the problem that we have is that in the States we have a culture of “believe the victims” and my whole vibe is “No, listen to someone that’s accusing or someone’s that’s a victim” because I don’t believe anyone until they have some kind of evidence or fact. That’s always how I grew up because people do lie and people do things for money. People kill for money for a lot less these guys are asking for, that are suing the Estate. For people to say: “Why would they do this? What do they get out of this?” They get a lot out of it because if the public believes their story and then all of a sudden when they come up to appeal, which is coming this year, all of a sudden the judge might say: “You know what, I am going to give them this money because they were victimized”.


TJ: But not only that though, Taj. Aaron Carter yesterday said how he was offered six figures to do an interview. So Aaron Carter was offered six figures, at least a 100.000 dollars. You gotta wonder what James and Wade are being offered right now. Don’t think this isn’t about money.




Race, conviction without evidence and smoke screen

Taj: And don’t forget Wade’s book that he wrote already, that no one wanted to pick up, you don’t think he’s going to republish that? So that’s what I’m saying, we have to do our research, especially in today’s world. I want to say something too Fernando, I hate this word but this is honestly the truth, this does have to do with race. This has to do with race and it has to do with bringing down an icon. A black man that has transcended the world basically. He has transcended everything that they’ve tried to stop him with, he’s transcended it. They’re doing certain things, they’re doing certain rules that they’ve never done in our life, he’s the first one that they’re condemning after death with no evidence. That’s not being convicted and they’re pulling things from him like statues, music and all of that stuff. They’re not doing it for the others? They’re not doing this for other races? This is the first time they’re doing this. There’s plenty of convicted people that still play their music. My Uncle’s not even convicted, he’s innocent so this has a lot to do with race and I know that’s a word that people aren’t comfortable with but it does. That’s why I think, black America, a lot of them are standing up because they realize that, they understand it. [TJ: They’re tired of it.] It’s double standards. There’s a lot of, right now in the news, that is hidden right now of real child molesters and sexual abusers that are right now my Uncle’s a smoke screen for. And one of them is very close to Oprah.




Media: Clicks, ratings and views

Fernando: That Oprah news has a lot of people thinking: “Well if Oprah believes it, it must be that way.” Everyday there’s a new story because the story that came out yesterday, I read they said that it’s not going well with Blanket so fans are like “Ok, is that true? Is that a lie is it not a lie?” It’s real hard to figure out for a lot of fans if it’s the truth or not but I can could call you guys and ask you guys “Hey, everybody good?” But for a lot of fans they hear that in the news, or non-fans or whatever, they hear that and they believe that. When they see a picture of Blanket walking or doing something, they assume it’s true. How do you guys feel about that?


TJ: How do you mean, Fernando? What do you mean from a picture how can you assume what someone’s feeling? It could be a bad day from a test, it could be a personal day. That’s why we have to be careful as a society, we can’t trust the media because they just want clicks and ratings and views. [Taj: And nothing comes from our mouth basically.] And nothing comes from our mouth. We were all distraught, we were all upset, we were all frustrated. Sure, you know, obviously that’s his father, he’s taking it hard but at the same time don’t assume that means there’s truth or validity to it. And it fact it’s the opposite, it’s the sense of hopelessness because the media doesn’t want that. The media profits way more with Michael Jackson when it [Taj: has a negative story] has a negative spin. That’s why we don’t hear about all the times he donated money on the top of the news. We don’t hear about it. Or all the great he has done or all the hospitals around the world that are named after him. We didn’t hear about the launching of each one of those because we’re programmed that way. It’s a dangerous thing. If there’s an accident down the street we stop and look. We’re programmed that way and the media is capitalizing and pushing it.


Facts versus fiction

Fernando: How do you train [Michael’s] young kids. You guys have been in the industry for a long period of time, you’ve seen your Uncle go through a lot of this stuff. How do you teach the knowledge that you guys have and see how the world is to his kids cause it’s kind of hard for them to “Wow, this world is even more crazy than I thought”. I would think that’s a very big burden to hold on to see the media change stuff and talk about your father. How do you guys help them?


TJ: It’s part of being a Jackson. I’ve dealt with this, I remember when my Uncle was accused in 1993, being in high school and hearing people talk about it. Even though I know my Uncle and I hear them talking about lies, talking about things about the ranch, what the ranch has and doesn’t have, when I was just there the last weekend. And they’re talking about it like it’s factual and they don’t even know. It’s just because they’re getting all this information from either news or tabloids and it becomes factual when you hear it eight times in a row. So, it’s just part of being a Jackson. I think they’re used to it and our Uncle informed them of it but it’s just part of being a Jackson. You just got to deal with people saying whatever they want and the people that want to look into it, really want to look into it, usually become your biggest fans. I think that’s why our Uncle’s fans have been so amazing because they’ve done their research, they’ve read all these court documents. They see how crazy it is that he even had to go through it. They’ve learned about 13 years of FBI secretly, without my Uncle even knowing, investigate him, wiretapped. All this type of stuff, the fans know this.


Taj: Neverland raid, two Neverland raids, and a raid at Hayvenhurst. I can tell you right now, child abusers, you’re going to find something on them, whether it is a computer, whether it is this or that, you’re going to find something on them, as I said it’s a sickness. So they’re making my Uncle to be this “Houdini” that knows everything and can hide everything and it’s ridiculous. Fernando, imagine if someone right now, while you’re on the air, went to your house and looked through your stuff right now. You know what I mean, that’s what happened to Michael Jackson twice you know what I mean. People have to think about that, they were out to get him and they didn’t find one ounce of anything illegal. Not even just what they were looking for, anything illegal. So that’s what I’m saying, yes you’ve watched a movie, well-acted I must say, but you watched a movie. That’s all you’ve watched and it was scripted and that’s what bothers me is that in today’s society, it’s like watching a reality show and thinking it’s all real.


TJ: Because of the music, because of the light, because of the angle, because of what we know about or seeing pictures about my Uncle because of, they kind of, they pulled a fast one on the viewers. They pulled a fast one and that’s why, for anyone who’s seen it, I urge you: spend 20 minutes, spend 30 minutes online on social media to do your research and if you haven’t seen it: keep it moving cause you’re going to waste 5 hours of your life and get your blood pressure up.


Taj: Honestly, there’s some stuff coming out. Everyday there’s something new coming out in terms of exposing their lies and this and that. The connection of between my Uncle and other people like Oprah and stuff like that. There’s a lot to this. It is almost like a rabbit hole but at the same time, if you’re willing to condemn someone and their music, that’s the least you can do is look for the truth. That’s the least you can do.




Factual documentary

Fernando: Taj, I also knew that you’re going to make your own documentary. Are you going to put all these stories and things, how you’ve been explaining in this conversation, are you going to put that in a voice to show to people like “Look if you don’t look for it online, this is what’s missing in that documentary.”


Taj: First of all, the most important thing is the 1993-1994 scenario because I think that’s where people always go back to: “Oh the settlement.” So I’m going to focus on that first because that is where everyone, I’ve heard stories “Where there’s smoke there’s fire” or “Why did he take that amount?” I think that needs to be cleared up to a lot of people ‘cause a lot of people don’t realize that that settlement never stopped the kid [Jordan Chandler] from testifying and also a lot of people don’t know about the description not matching at all. So I think those kind of things that I need to, I need to kind of go back in time to where it all started and then go forward. And to be honest with you Fernando, I want to do it that way as well because I feel like in eight months to a year from now when I finish this documentary and hopefully it’ll be sooner but I really feel that they [Robson and Safechuck] might be exposed before then. So, I don’t want to start with that because I’ll be wasting my time. So I want to start with what I think is the more the important thing and by that time if there’s still people that think it then I will do something on this but I don’t want to waste my time because they’re already digging their own graves.


Real Talk in NandoLeaks

Fernando: Guys, I really want to thank you guys for your time. This Real Talk conversation talking about y’all take on the situation and I want to thank you for letting the listener listen to people that actually knew and grew up and lived around Michael Jackson. 

So I would really like to thank you guys for taking the time to talk to the fans in this way, in this podcast, in this Real Talk Podcast. The reason I came up with this podcast was to have a platform where people be freely to speak their mind and really tell their side of the story, without the interview being edited, without words being processed or changed around. 

Taj: We appreciate that.


TJ: Thank you Fernando and we love you too man and keep doing your thing and we’re watching over here.


Fernando: Thank you. Say hi to everybody for me.


Taj: We will.


TJ: You do the same, we will. You do the same, Fernando.


Fernando: Thank you. 3T in Real Talk the podcast. Check it out online, NandoLeaks.

© NandoLeaks/Tobing Agency, March 2019Real Talk with 3T on “Leaving Neverland”

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